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 Help for Stutters and Poor FPS

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No.42_Duff4r
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PostSubject: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:28 pm

My System:

Intel CORE 2 Duo 2.66 OC'd to 3.2GHz on an ABIT IP35 Pro MoBo
EVGA NVIDIA GTX 460 SE OC'd using EVGA'a Precision X aimed at 60 FPS
Corsair MSX 2 Twin2X2048-6400C4DHX, a 2048MByte matched pair of DDR2 SDRAM DIMMs X 2 for a total of 8GB @ 800MHz with Voltage set at 2.1v Timed 4.4.4.12.

ROF most of the 'pretties dumbed down', Shaders and Reflections. Video Memory usage is 38% and I am using FlightFX properly configured in NVDIA Inspector and NVIDIA CP.

On a server like Wargrounds, using FRAPs I show 48-55 FPS. However get 20 players and get into aircombat and it is stuttery, certainly NOT Smooth! FPS drops to 18 - 22.

I found this on ROF:

This issue graphically (pun intended) illustrates the distinction between frame rates and smooth loading/distribution of rendered frames - a very common misconception. This is often observed as 'stutters' and unfortunately, just as observed, no amount of graphics "tweaking" will resolve this, nor the biggest, baddest GPU/card, either.

I scratched my head over this for a long time, bought faster and faster video cards...just as descried here, this naturally increased frame rates but still didn't solve the issues.

Then I finally decided to go to the source of the problem - where the data is actually loaded from. I now run RoF from an insanely fast (relatively speaking, of course) solid-state add-in board (OCZ "RevoDrive 3 120"). This card has two SSD's in a RAID-0 config on a very fast SandForce controller, it yields an average read right at 1000 MB/sec, well beyond what even the fastest single platter-based hard disk can do.

I can tell you first hand that you'll get much further with this type of issue with a faster 'mass media storage sub-system' - your hard drive(s) and controller, that is - than all the graphics upgrades in the world. It simply is not a graphics performance issue, per se.

The graphics in RoF are, of course, some of the best anywhere. The problem is that these graphics also will load even the most capable of setups. And, as noticed by so many, the situation has gotten noticeably more pronounced with the channel map.

There was a time, for a long time, when having faster "hard disks" only meant loading levels in games faster. No longer true when you see effects like what is discussed above. The good news is that having a faster mass media storage subsystem also inherently means much faster loading in RoF (which is also a problem for many).

I cannot recommend strongly enough that anyone flying RoF consider the fastest storage they can possibly afford. Even then, TBH, you're going to experience these small delays, glitches, stutters, whatever you want to call them, when larger amounts of data are loaded in RoF (like the discussion here describes), although it isn't typically like that in other games.


Is anyone running this? Is anyone running a SATA SSD. Is anyone running ROF totally smooth?

Duff


Last edited by No.42_Duff4r on Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Duff4r,

I don't run, I don't think,
Duff4r wrote:
I can tell you first hand that you'll get much further with this type of issue with a faster 'mass media storage sub-system' - your hard drive(s) and controller, that is - than all the graphics upgrades in the world. It simply is not a graphics performance issue, per se.
I do run SATA SSDs. My OS and my game both run from different SSDs, both are SATA3.

Only time I have an issue at all in when I'm testing missions and flying them on the same PC running them and AI is on the mission.

Other then that I'm at 55+ fps and no studders.

I can pass on other system info, if needed.
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:27 pm

Yeah Navy, if you would, what  system specs do you have? See my specs above. I am thinking that a PCI-E SSD or a SATA SSD may help a lot of pilots here. (SSD- Solid State Drive)

PCI-E  SSD This means that the SSD must be pluged into the slot where you SECOND video card would go if you ran 2 video cards in SLI. PCI-E Slot one is for Video cards and runs a multiplier of x16. PCI-E Slot#2 runs a multiplier of x4. If you were to buy one of these you could get 110GB from newegg for $90. That is a ton cheaper than buying a new rig. Why? If I do this I will reformat and put Windows 7 Pro 64 on this drive ROF and IL-2 only. Windows 7 should boot in under 10 seconds, faster than your monitor can see it. ROF will load 90% faster.

SATA  (SSD) Regardless of if you have SATA II or III these drives will work. As with the PCI-E they are also blazing fast. I would load it the same.

I think I am going to buy one to try and see if it works. I hope others chime in here. Navy what is your OS Boot time and your ROF boot time?

Duff



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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:14 am

SSD is not your video card it is "Solid State Drive". You are thinking of SLI which is "Scalable Link Interface" which is 2 or more video cards. You do not want to do this! Your issue is mostly that you don't have enough CPU to push the video card to even let it run normally, hense video memory is 38%.

Sorry, I reread your post. PCI-e SSD could work better then SATA 2 SSD but its a gamble. Your bios will need updating and it may not work right for you.

So go SATA 2 and you should not be overclocking your video card at all. It will cause stutter because it can't run at even normal load and your pushing it to do more.

What power supply do you have?

I have I7 920 OC 4ghz, 16 gigs DDR3, 2x 256gigs SATA 3 SSD's, 480 GTX


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:53 am

Ahhh! thanks for chiming in here Cobraj

Antec 650w Modular

I was more forwarding the post from ROF Forum about SSD's improving the game more than bigger CPU's or Video cards and offering the 2 types available and some options.

Yes, the PCI-E SSD could be a bit of a gamble but the speeds are even faster than the SATA III's.

SATA III, Most of us with older rigs only have SATA II and I was pointing out that SATA III is backward compatible and then, reusable on a rebuild.

See here's what was killing me. I can go on Wargrounds with say 6 pilots on and run smooth as silk and 55 FPS. Up that to 20 pilots and it's no longer smooth and in a air battle it can get really bad. That shouldn't happen with my rig. My internet isn't great but no bad at 10M/1M and it's solid. I have the game set for 4M/1M.

Now when I go to Arizona I have an Intel Quad Core 2.33 with 8 Gigs RAM and a NVIDIA 650 Ti 2G card and it doesn't do any better, maybe a bit worse? Ya see the HDD makes sense to me just like the guy on the ROF forum stated.

I don't need more rig than what I have except for ROF. The only other game I play is IL-2 and I have everything MAXED out and get a solid 60 FPS (VSYNC On) in full combat over a smoking city.

We have a Best Buy here and I am hoping to pick up a SATA III SSD today and slide ROF on it and give it a try.

FWIW, That GTX 460 SE v2 is strong. The EVGA Precision X utility allows all types of OCing. I only OC for ROF and only specify the FPS I want to attain (60 FPS). I have had the OC on and off with seemingly better performance on. I will take the OC off again as you suggested.



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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:56 am

Duff4r,

Windows 7 Professional (x64) Service Pack 1 (build 7601)
Board: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. X79-UD3
CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
3.60 gigahertz Intel Core i7-3820 (4core)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 Ti (PresisionX aimed at 60 FPS)
ADATA SX 900 SCSI Disk Device (256.05 GB) -- Games
INTEL SS DSC2CT240A3 SCSI Disk Device (240.05 GB) -- OS

OS Boot less than a minute to log in, less than minute to full desk top
ROF, start time to log in less than a minute, typical mission load 15 seconds or so.

Times are guesses but are about right.
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:37 pm

Duff. Get the drive it might be your answer. It does improve game play smoothness. SSD is the way to go for sure. I have one for the last 5 years once they became affordable. PCI-e SSD is your better option though.


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:16 pm

I wanted to upgrade to a SSD drive last December and ended up upgrading my whole rig.  To get the most out of these drives you really need the SATAIII bus.  

The SATA 2 is still pretty fast and probably much faster than your regular drive.  And for the price its a good way to add some horse power.

The problem I have here is that your saying that once the server load goes up so do your stutters.  To me that's one of 2 things.  Network or CPU/Memory.   I don't think that article you posted is the same issue your having.  If it were the hard drive, you would see it in off line play as well.  This is simply your PC not getting and or processing updates fast enough.    

Duff if you want hop on early TS tonight an we can use TeamViewer and I can take a look at your rig.  You might have a problem with your NIC or some other app inducing latency into your connection.


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:49 pm

Good idea Hawg. Duff let HAWG tweek you. Your right and if everyone is having the same issue it's the server load.


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:08 pm

No.42_Hawg wrote:
I wanted to upgrade to a SSD drive last December and ended up upgrading my whole rig.  To get the most out of these drives you really need the SATAIII bus.  

The SATA 2 is still pretty fast and probably much faster than your regular drive.  And for the price its a good way to add some horse power.

The problem I have here is that your saying that once the server load goes up so do your stutters.  To me that's one of 2 things.  Network or CPU/Memory.   I don't think that article you posted is the same issue your having.  If it were the hard drive, you would see it in off line play as well.  This is simply your PC not getting and or processing updates fast enough.    

Duff if you want hop on early TS tonight an we can use TeamViewer and I can take a look at your rig.  You might have a problem with your NIC or some other app inducing latency into your connection.
Ok let's do this! I bought a 120GB SSD for $99 at Staples with a 2 week return policy. In our server tonight I was smooth as glass and averaged 52 FPS. Didn't get into a fight. Wargrounds, good but not so good. I averaged 38 FPS but for the most part was smooth even in a dogfight. Obviously testing will continue. When can you be on TS tomorrow?

Duff



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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:31 am

Yes sir I can be on tomorrow. So it sounds like your doing OK though? How many people were on WG last night?


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:44 am

I am not sure but more than 20.

Here's some network tweaks I use:

1.) Disable unused network adapters and IPv6 related interfaces in Device Manager, tick "Show hidden device" in Device Manager View tab to show them all: Disable all ISATAP, 6to4 and Teredo Tunneling interfaces.

2.) Network adapter properties, disabled Flow Control and Interrupt Moderation. In Speed & Duplex I am currently set at Auto Negotiate but I have used 100bps full duplex. It's something I turn on and off from time to time. I have a Realtek NIC so in drivers properties I have Large Send Offload V2 (IPv4): Enable

3.) Control Panel\Network and Internet\Network and Sharing Center> Connection> Properties:
I disabled TCP/IPv6. Supposed to fix lag spikes!

4.) I use Speed Guide TCP Optimizer set to optimal settings + TcpAckFrequency=1, TcpNoDelay=1 LargeSystemCache, disabled.

Got more? Something here not good?

Later today!



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The Meaning of Life: Someone to Love, Something to Do, and Something to look forward To!


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:11 am

OK, update:

I am happy so far. I simply couldn't play in SYNDICATE. FPS in SYNDICATE last night was low 30's.....but, smooth as silk.

Wargrounds, high 30's smooth.

Our server, perfect, FPS mid 50's smooth.

My current system bottle neck is my CPU

Stuff:

FWIW, I bought the Kingston SSDnow 300 120 GB UPGRADE <= this was cool because it comes with software to clone your current Primary drive. It took about 15 minutes total and worked a treat!
Notes:
1.) Once installed go into your BIOS and set CD/DVD ROM as 1st boot and Current HDD as second reboot with the SSD disk in the CD/DVD ROM clonning is simple!
2.) When done: Back to the BIOS to Hard Disk Priority and select the Kingston over your current Primary HDD then, still in BIOS swap the order back to 1st boot device Hard Disk, second CD/DVD ROM.
3.) Your new Kingston is now your E:\ Drive and your old HDD is still your C:\ as generally you CD/DVD is the D:\

Here's the links:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820721107 $89.00 (I paid $99.00 - Staples)

I have SATA II. Those with SATA III should consider this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820239045 $99.00

Again mine came with 'cloning software'. I have a WD Raptor 10,000 rpm 150GB with only 78GB on it so, I cloned it. I wouldn't do this again. Once you install this, format the drive. If you don't WinBlows won't see it. I would install Windows on it then install ROF on it. After you do that, copy your current ROF game over the top of your just installed game and you wont have to download all the skinpacks etc. Of course you will want any other games there too!

Time? They say that windows will install in less than 15 minutes :) Copying to this is shockingly fast.

I still recommend buying this from a place you can return it if not satisfied.

Example if you look at my specs I'm good except the CPU:

CPU: Core 2 Duo Conroe 2.66
RAM: 8 Gig
Video: GTX 460 SE v2
OS: Windows 7 Pro 64 bit

Another pilot I talked to has a Quad core but his OS is XP 32 so his RAM is limited to 3.5 G, he has 2 Gig. His video card is a Geforce 8600GT, minimum listed for ROF is Geforce 8800GT. So as always, 'mileage may vary'.

**If you return a drive....reformat it twice first!**
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:22 pm

No.42_Duff4r wrote:

Another pilot I talked to has a Quad core but his OS is XP 32 so his RAM is limited to 3.5 G, he has 2 Gig. His video card is a Geforce 8600GT, minimum listed for ROF is Geforce 8800GT.
Yeah that's me.
After chatting with Duff4r I have come to realize that the assumption my system was too old to really upgrade much may be completely wrong.

Not giving up on my build, BUT upgrade = cheaper + sooner.

So I'm going to post a bunch of info for the gurus in hopes that the best upgrade options can be hammered out.


I was just looking at my motherboard book and realized it supports a 64 bit OS.  ASUS M3N-HD/HDMImotherboard  CPU socket AM2+/AM2

I have found nothing telling me that this uses SATA II, but as I understand it that's all it could be.  Correct?

CPU is an AMD.  Logo says AMD Phenom with a little 64 in the lower left corner.
Here's what the rest of the box says.
9550
AMD Phenom 4X Processor
2.2 GHz True Quad-Core Design
4.0 MB Total L2+L3 Cache
Socket AM2+

HyperTransport 3.0
AMD64 With Direct Connect Architecture

So still a 64 bit system?

My motherboard book comes with instructions on Bios updating.  I've never felt comfortable with this so I've never done it.  Also never touched overclocking either.

Sitting atop my CPU is this hawnkin hugh Thermaltake GoldenOrb II  Heat sink fan. (blue lit looks nice)
Only issue with this is it blocks 2 of my 4 ram slots.  The yellow slots are blocked so I use the black slots which the instructions say should only be used after the yellow.  Don't know of any issues from this but you guru's might.

RAM Slots DDR2 DIMM
2x Corsair 1GB DDR2 1066MHz PC2-8500 C5


Might as well tell you I have an ANTEC NINE HUNDRED ADVANCED GAMING CASE with 5x 5" blue lit fans and 1 8" fan in the top.

I don't know what my internal power supply is as I'll need to remove it from the case to see, but I got one that was capable of handling my graphics card.  My main concern is it might not have enough power beyond that requirement.  If I buy a new card I will defiantly upgrade the power supply.

BTW is it still possible to buy XP64? Win 7 & 8 might require too much on the hardware I've got.
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:12 pm

I'm looking at ordering an SSD from Newegg.

These 3 are slightly more money than what Duff4r linked to but seem to be even faster.  Would like some feedback on choices.

Toshiba Q Series HDTS212XZSTA 128GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

NY XLR8 PRO SSD9SC120GCDA-RB 2.5" 120GB SATA III Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)

This one seems to be the PCI express slot variation if I see this correctly.
Mushkin Enhanced Atlas Series MKNSSDAT120GB-DX mSATA 120GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD)
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:37 pm

Ok I'll start!

1.) Upgrade you OS to Windows 7 64bit - Consider OEM. One time use per Mobo and CPU but as many Vid cards and Drives as you like.

2.) Upgrade your Ram to 8 Gig. You said you can't get  to 2 of your RAM slots because of your CPU fan? Toss the RAM you have and add 2 sticks of 4 Gig each.

3.) Upgrade your Video card to a GTX 650 Ti 2G minimum - find the sweet spot here (price vs Power). PCI-E 3.0 IS backward compatible!

4.) Your MoBo supports SATA III so you're good there. Add an SSD, either of the above SATA 3's are fine. The 3rd is not PCI-E. As above, I would make the SSD bootable and then put your games there and use the one you have for everything else.

My Best,
Duff



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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:01 pm

No AMD crap! Get an Intel you can afford.

Intel (Sandy Bridge or newer)
Water Cooled CPU cooler Antec Kuhler 920 or Corsair Hydro
Nvidia graphics card (search PCI-e 3.0 card) example: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007709%20600286742&IsNodeId=1&name=PCI%20Express%203.0%20x16&Order=RATING
SSD SATA3 (they are backward Compatable to SATA2 standard)
800watt Power Supply (Gold or higher)
8 or 16 gigs DDR3 Dual Channel or Quad (quad has little increase) 24gigs and higher is Windows Extreme only!


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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:17 am

Salute  Thanks for your replies.

Please keep in mind this is just an upgrade of my current system to get RoF manageable - (ie I can fly channel map and get better frames) until I do my full blown top of the line new build which I'm saving up for. The fact that this computer will remain in use, and I want to fly the channel map in the next FiF, makes it worth a little expense to upgrade. I don't consider the cost of a medium new build $800-$1200 to be an acceptable expense for this. erm... well... At least not all at once - there I go my grip is already slipping... so... maybe how best to do this in stages?

I'm trying to figure out what can be done, and what makes sense to do.

I will be getting an SSD SATA3 120 Gig. Probably one of the 3 I previously posted. Just need to figure out what is best for me so input on those would be welcome.

Cobraj
Is Intel compatible with AM2+/AM2 sockets? (My new build will be Intel I promise, I repent my evil ways, forgive me I have sinned Crying or Very sad  )

Nvidia faithful here and if I get a new card I will absolutely get a new power supply. Not sure the power supply isn't already necessary.

How about 80 plus gold power supply? I think that narrows it down to a couple hundred choices. Got any favorite brand names? Big Grin 

Ram has to be DDR2 DIMM compatible and a maximum of 2 GB, unbuffered ECC and non ECC. (Whatever ECC is)
I think this may fit the bill as I currently have Corsair (2 x 1GB) DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500 C5)
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)




Nvidia $150-$300

Power supply $80-$100

Win7 OEM ~$100

Ram $70
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:21 am

SINNER!!!!! Big Grin 

Someone get him the Scarlet Letter "A" for AMD of course.

Looking good IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Help for Stutters and Poor FPS   Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:09 am

Maybe look for your video card on ebay, Got mine for 1/2 price of new and only 6 months old.(some people have to have the latest and greatest,so they sell perfectly good cards).Smile 


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