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 WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!

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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:28 pm

Remember how we only saw 3 tank icons and just assumed they were general representations?  They were not!  I just ran the mission and found 5 tanks at each icon and nowhere else.

Start your own server and prove to me there were 20 tanks.

We scored 9 not 4!  Substantial Entente victory!


Also noted the fire on the ground was between machineguns.
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No.42_Flatspin

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:23 pm

Uhh...where did this info come from? It's exciting, but I'm cautious.

Is it corroborated with the mission builder? If it's an error, great! But do we just add in the missing tanks?



Train the way you'll fight and fight the way you've trained; and above all -- remember the mission!


Last edited by No.42_Flatspin on Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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No.42_Zed

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:24 pm

Now that makes sense!  There wasn't 5 arty kills in 30 minutes. There were zero!


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No.42_Flatspin

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:27 pm

No.42_Zed wrote:
Now that makes sense!  There wasn't 5 arty kills in 30 minutes. There were zero!

That doesn't work with your math, Zed.



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No.42_Zed

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:32 pm

They killed 11 by the stats. 4 finished.  Total 15.  

3 groups of 5 = 15.  That means if only 15 started the. Bombers that took out all the arty stopped them from from killing any. Makes more sense than a hopped up kill rate on arty in under 30 minutes


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No.42_Flatspin

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:54 pm

So...now it seems plausible that their arty didn't kill any tanks in 40 minutes? To recap: 12 guns can kill 20 tanks in two hours. So...5 in 30 minutes.

You guys are killing me!

Go ahead and take up the missing tanks with Butzzell, or I can do it tomorrow. It does look like a shortage, but I don't know about zero tanks being destroyed by arty.



Train the way you'll fight and fight the way you've trained; and above all -- remember the mission!
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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:41 pm

Flat I ran a server on my computer and loaded last nights mission.  There were only 15 tanks.  That's pretty solid info.
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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:49 pm

PMed Butzzell with the following message.

Quote :
We were actually short on tanks
While investigating a concern that those immortal MGs might have killed some tanks I discovered we only had 15 tanks in the game to begin with.  When we entered the game last Wednesday we saw only 3 tank icons and just assumed they were representative of the area where the four groups were.  But I ran the mission on my machine to see how the tanks interacted with the MGs and discovered there were only 3 sets of tanks.

Please investigate this.
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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:03 am

No.42_Flatspin wrote:
So...now it seems plausible that their arty didn't kill any tanks in 40 minutes? To recap: 12 guns can kill 20 tanks in two hours. So...5 in 30 minutes.

You guys are killing me!

Go ahead and take up the missing tanks with Butzzell, or I can do it tomorrow. It does look like a shortage, but I don't know about zero tanks being destroyed by arty.


There is actually a delay in the game before the arty guns engage the tanks. There is also a delay before the gas shells start shooting. So it's possible we were killing guns before they even started shooting. And every gun that dies reduces the chance of a tank being hit.

So if we start off with a maximum of 7 tanks being hit and 15 minutes later that's reduced to 5, and then reduced by 1 every five minutes it's very probable we would have no losses.
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No.42_Zed

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:49 am

It comes down to 5 tanks

Either they were not there or killed by overly zealous arty.  5 tanks are a major difference

If they were missing I propose we get 25 tanks next Wednesday allowing both the Entente side a chance at a large victory yet allowing the Central side the opportunity to take them out

Score really is irrelevant the game is the goal and this has been a fun series


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NavyJake

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:57 am

All,

I will load the mission in the editor and count the tanks.

Salute
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NavyJake

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:22 am




Mystery solved?
Tanks were present but we didn't know where they started from, they found them but then we didn't even look for them....
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No.42_Flatspin

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:42 am

So we did have 20 tanks...further to the rear.

Okay. As info becomes more available and time is passing we're getting a better picture of what actually happened. At this point, what do you want me to take up with Butzzell — my previously posted two items?

SS good show of initiative and stated diplomatically to Butzzell. I would ask only that you cc me on all communique's to the enemy. I assume you also offered them quarter for their surrender, yes?



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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:50 am

Alright, I'm going to load up the mission and visually find those tanks, and then watch them to see how fast they die.

I missed those tanks with icons on.  Also I were told all the tanks would be between the rivers.  And that's what the icons showed.  Why didn't we get an icon for the fourth group?  Especially since the Central side doesn't see those icons.
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No.42_Hawg

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:04 am

Maybe no one told the tanks to stay between the rivers?  Fog of war and all that.


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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:22 am

No.42_Flatspin wrote:
So we did have 20 tanks...further to the rear.

Okay. As info becomes more available and time is passing we're getting a better picture of what actually happened. At this point, what do you want me to take up with Butzzell — my previously posted two items?

SS good show of initiative and stated diplomatically to Butzzell. I would ask only that you cc me on all communique's to the enemy. I assume you also offered them quarter for their surrender, yes?

Yes, although they just chuckled. I said it was a 2002 OHIO quarter in mint condition and they smirked. I offered them a 2002 Tennessee, a 2000 New Hampshire, two dimes and a nickle, and 25 pennies. They just kept laughing harder and harder. Obviously our offer of quarter was not taken seriously.


The other concerns

1 - disconnect/reconnect They had two pilots in the latter half of the game do this and return 3 1/2 minutes later. About that time 2 of their pilots connected for the first time. We also had a couple of pilots leave the server about that time. It made that section of chat look very suspicious. We have enjoyed the ability to rejoin the game after a disco in both FIF tournaments. I say no foul here.

2 - Captured pilots re-flying. They had enough loses to account for the messages I saw. There is just no solid evidence to base this theory on. It felt like we were killing hoards only to face 3 times as many. Without an actual parser log we cant discern one way or another.

3 - Immortal machine guns killing our tanks. I saw the tanks engage the MGs. Although there was a lot of fire I was unable to confirm the MGs fired on the tanks at any time. I will try to observe this again.
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NavyJake

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:28 am

If the mission builder doesn't put an icon in the mission, well it doesn't show up.

I think Hawg is being facetious…

Flat, my opinion is this was an unintentional oversight by the mission builder.

Rules stated we would know where the tanks are starting from.

That being said, once Butzzell see this they may offer something.

My recommendation is to call part 1 a draw. This leaves part 2 for all the marbles.

I realize that it was unintentional, but it happened. Since we now know where the tanks start from as do they re-flying part 1 could make sense, but I personally would call it a draw.

Central Powers you did a great job, but…..

Random Big Grin

FYI: Based on coding by the mission builder, if the tanks are engaging the MGs, they won't move any further based on their orders. Over an hour into the mission the tanks, although slow hadn't moved much. SS can check this out tonight. Kind of turned them into stationary targets.
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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:42 am


Quote :

FYI: Based on coding by the mission builder, if the tanks are engaging the MGs, they won't move any further based on their orders. Over an hour into the mission the tanks, although slow hadn't moved much. SS can check this out tonight. Kind of turned them into stationary targets.

This also marks their location for the enemy.  All those tracers almost become a yellow laser firefight.  All that illumination in the dark.

Speaking of the dark, the mission starts at noon so those clouds have to be super thick to make it that dark.
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No.42_Flatspin

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:51 pm

The tanks engaged MG's also means they weren't engaging the Arty as much or at all.

I also think this is unintentional. I think a replay is out of the question because it looks like nothing technically went wrong — we just had one set of tanks on the map that were hidden from us as well as them and I doubt it would have mattered given their tactics. 

I'll contact Butzzell when I get home regarding the above. I think the tanks engaging MG's and wasting their energy there should be concern #1 which may require some mission building changes. 

Our own tactics might have nipped us in the butt a bit too: we've been practicing, for some time now, not to keep engaging an enemy fleeing the engagement. This enabled them to escape and return or escape, ditch and replane. On a small map, even a 5 minute replane wait isn't going to matter much. We may want to amend that for small areas like this one. On the flip side, they were pursuing us to the ground ensuring fewer of us got the opportunity to return. 

Did we have any ditches? Were they counted as captured?



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Shnoze_Shmon

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PostSubject: Re: WE WERE SHORTED ON TANKS!!!   Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:11 pm

Spent quite a bit of time with Butzzell today and we both ran a complete game.


First, the five other tanks spawned in after the game got going.  The messages about attacking and defending Cambrai signaled the spawning of these tanks.

Although the tanks do fire on the MGs the MGs do not seem to fire on the tanks and the tanks keep moving.

What we did find is the number of tanks destroyed was not reduced by removing 4 of the guns.  While in an earlier test he had a result of 6 destroyed in this case we both had a result of 8 destroyed.  We both saw surges of tank destruction about half an hour into the game. (3 tanks in 3 minutes or less)  It is apparent that simply removing one gun from a pair will not have an effect on the number destroyed.

Butzzell is looking into this issue further.

All four groups of tanks starting places will be marked in part 2
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